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Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE

 
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JRRALAHY
Junior
Junior


Joined: 22 Oct 2018
Posts: 11

PostPosted: 13/06/2019 15:26    Post subject: Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Reply with quote

Hello,

someone can help please? my touch panel is blocked on boot mode.
please see below the message shown:
"BootCE MP377...
Version: 00.01.35.00
Mac: xxxxxx

Enabling updade mode....
Loading image from flash....
No image found...
Waiting for image update... "


thanks for the reply
regards
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ALooser
Junior 2
Junior 2


Joined: 26 Oct 2018
Posts: 37

PostPosted: 13/06/2019 20:34    Post subject: How do you backup/restore with a Windows-based panel? Reply with quote

How do you backup/restore with a Windows-based panel?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/28928853/how-do-you-backup-restore-with-a-windows-based-panel

1. Backup/Restore with ProSave
With ProSave you have a convenient option of central archiving even without ProTool or WinCC flexible. This provides you with a quick way of starting up again after a system failure or replacement of devices. The backed-up data is transferred to the new target device and the original status thus restored.
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/21907703/21907703_Back_transfer_description_e.pdf
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/21907703/21907703_Back_transfer_devices_e.pdf
It is not possible to load and edit a backup file in ProTool or WinCC flexible. The file can only be reloaded to the original or another panel via a restore with ProSave.
Note
Operator panel TP070 does not support backup/restore with ProSave.

=====================================
1.Preparations for Backup/Restore
Depending on the operator panel, you can use one of the following connections for a backup/restore with ProSave:
- Serial (over RS232/PPI multimaster cable) 6ES7 901-3CB30-0AX0
- Serial (over USB-PPI cable) 6ES7 901-3DB30-0XA0
- Serial (over RS232 / zero modem cable) *) 6ES7 901-1BF00-0XA0
- MPI / PROFIBUS DP
- Ethernet
- USB (host-to-host cable) information in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/19142034/USB_Transfer_V1_0_e.pdf
*)You can realizate the zero modem cable (6ES7 901-1BF00-0XA0) yourself. More information is available in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/21401061/Panel_Kommunikation_Steckerbelegung_T1_01_e.pdf
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
01
If you do not have ProTool or WinCC flexible, you can also download ProSave independently - see
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/10347815/servicetool-simatic-prosave

ProSave allows a complete backup directly from the panel including the configuration. The backup created can then be loaded back into the autentic or an identical device.
Connect the PC with the panel and put it the panel in Transfer mode. If not configured, you can put the panel in this mode by switching the power off and on again. For this you must select and hold the Transfer button when you restart the panel.

Now the panel is in Transfer mode and ready for backup/restore.
If you want to make a restore, you can jump directly to Point 3 "Restore".
====================================
2.Backup
Open ProSave and select the correct panel in the "General" tab.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
02
Select the connection between the PC and the panel, serial (over RS232 / zero modem cable), for example.
Define the connection parameters, for example COM1 with a baud rate of 38400 for the serial connection.
Note:
In USB connections (host-to-host cable) and serial connections over USB-PPI cable, you cannot define additional connection parameters.

Switch to the "Backup" tab, select the path and specify a file name, "C:\panel.psb", for example. Under the "Data type" you define the type of backup to be created.
Note:
The file extension ".psb" is necessary, because only this file type can be loaded for a restore.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
03
When everything is set, you trigger the backup procedure with "Start Backup".
Note:
If the connection is interrupted, it might be because another software, virus scanner or power management, for example, is accessing the COM interface. Therefore, make sure that any such software is terminated before restarting.
Once the backup has been completed, the file created can now be loaded back into a device of the same type or back into the original device, as required.
===============================================
3.Restore
First put your panel in Transfer mode as described in Point 1 and set up the connection to the PC.
Select the appropriate operator panel and connection type in the "General" tab - see Fig. 02.
If possible, define the connection parameters.
Switch to the "Restore" tab in ProSave.
Open your ".psb-file" and transfer the loading procedure by clicking "Start Restore".
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
04
After successful transfer of data to your panel, this is now ready to be integrated in your system after startup.

Note:
The panel has exactly the same connection parameters as the panel from which the backup originates. Make sure that both panels are not in the same system, in order to avoid connection problems.
===============================================
2. Backup/Restore with a memory card
During saving (backup), the operating system, applications and data are copied from the internal flash memory of the operator panel to the memory card.
When you restore, the flash memory of the operator panel is deleted after a prompt. Then the data backed up on the memory card is copied to the internal flash memory.
Requirements
The operator panel supports the Backup/Restore function.
A memory card is available in the operator panel with sufficient free space.
Which operator panels support backup/restore with a memory card are given in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/21907703/how-do-you-back-transfer-the-projects-of-an-operator-panel-and-what-should-you-watch-out-for
Use of the backup/restore function depends on the operator panel. In the following we will be considering operator panels of the 177, 277 and 377 series. For other operator panels - in special for older operator panels - please refer to the relevant manuals for the procedure.
No. Procedure
1 Preparation

Start the operator panel and open the "Control Panel".
Slot the memory card into the operator panel.
Open the "Backup/Restore" menu in the "Control Panel".
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
05
If you only want to make a restore, you can jump directly to Point 3 "Restore".
=============================================
2 Backup
Click the "Backup" button in "Backup/Restore" dialog.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
06
Note
Figure 06 shows the "Backup/Restore" dialog of an operator panel with Windows CE 5.0.

=============================================
2.1 Backup - operator panels with one interface for memory cards
With operator panels with only one interface for memory cards, the memory card is automatically searched for.
a) Memory card detected
If the backup is successful, the "Backup successfully completed." dialog opens.
Acknowledge the dialog with "OK".
If there is already an old backup on the memory card, a message is issued on the operator asking whether or not you want to delete the old backup.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to delete the old backup and lucrate a new one.
Acknowledge the message with "No" if you do not want to delete the old backup and want to interrupt the current backup procedure. Acknowledge the interrupt with "OK".
A warning is displayed if the available memory is insufficient.
Use an appropriate memory card or delete all the unnecessary data in the Windows CE Explorer.
b) Memory card not detected
If there is a defective memory card in the operator panel, or none at all, then the following message is displayed.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
07
Click "OK" to close the warning.
Click "OK" to acknowledge the "Backup interrupted" message.
Repeat the procedure using an appropriate memory card.
2.2 Backup - operator panels with numeroase interfaces for memory cards
In the case of operator panels with multiple interfaces for memory cards, you can select the memory card explicitly on the operator panel - see Fig. 8.
In the list box - see Fig. 08 - you select the required memory card and then click the "Start Backup" button.
Warning - possible loss of data!
When you first use a memory card, the operator panel prompts you to compus it.
Click the "ESC" button to abort the formatting procedure.
If no memory card is slotted or the memory card is defective, then no memory card is displayed.
In this case, slot a memory card that functions into the operator panel.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
08
If the message is displayed indicating that a higher storage capacity is required, then proceed as follows:
Click "OK" to acknowledge the message and thus interrupt the backup.
Slot a memory card with the higher storage capacity into the operator panel.
Start the backup again.
If there is already an old backup on the memory card, you get a message asking you whether this backup should be overwritten.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to delete the old backup and create a new one.
Acknowledge the message with "No" if you do not want to delete the old backup and want to interrupt the current backup procedure. Acknowledge the interrupt with "OK".
The backup is completed when the "Backup successfully completed..." message is displayed.
Acknowledge the message with "OK".
Remove the memory card from the operator panel.
3 Restore
Click the "Restore" button in the "Backup/Restore" dialog - see Fig. 06.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
09
Note
Figure 09 shows the "Backup/Restore" dialog of an operator panel with Windows CE 3.0.
=============================================
3.1 Restore - operator panels with one interface for memory cards
In the case of operator panels with only one interface for memory cards, you can do a restore only via that interface.
a) Memory card detected
If the memory card is detected, a message is displayed asking whether the restore procedure should be continued. Here, all the data of the flash will be deleted on the operator panel.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to start the restore.
Acknowledge the message with "No" and then the following message with "OK" if you want to abort the restore.
Once the flash has been deleted and the Windows CE image has been successfully restored, you must reboot the operator panel.
Acknowledge the message with "OK".
Note
Do not remove the memory card from the operator panel during the restart!
As soon as the restore has been successfully completed, a message is displayed prompting you to remove the memory card from the operator panel.
Remove the memory card from the operator panel.
Acknowledge removal of the memory and reboot with "OK".
b) Memory card not detected
If there is a defective memory card in the operator panel, or none at all, then the following message is displayed.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
10
Slot an appropriate memory card into the operator panel and acknowledge this with "OK" if you want to execute the restore.
Click the "X" if you want to abort the restore procedure.
3.2 Restore - operator panels with multiple interfaces for memory cards
In the case of operator panels with multiple interfaces for memory cards, you can select the memory card explicitly on the operator panel - see Fig. 1.
In this case, you select the memory card that contains the backup.
If no memory card is slotted or the memory card is defective or the memory card contains no backup, then no memory card is displayed.
In this case, slot a memory card that functions and which contains a backup of the operator panel into the operator panel.
Only storage media containing a backup is detected.
Then click the "Start Restore" button.
If multiple external storage media with a backup are slotted on one operator panel, data restore is not possible.
Remove all the external storage media units that contain a backup and are not relevant and then click the "Refresh" button.
Alternatively you can abort the restore procedure by clicking the "Cancel" button.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
11
Once the data to be restored has been checked, a prompt is displayed querying whether you want to start Restore and in doing so whether you want to delete all the data on the flash.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to start the restore.
Acknowledge the message with "No" and then the following message with "OK" if you want to abort the restore.
The restore is completed when the "Restore successfully finished..." message is displayed.
Click "OK" to acknowledge the message and restart the operator panel.
Additional Keywords
OP73, TP070, TP170, TP177, Mobile Panel170, Mobile Panel177, Mobile Panel277, OP77A, OP77B, TP170A, TP170B, TP177A, TP177B, OP170B, OP177, TP270, TP277, OP270, OP277, MP270, MP270B, MP277, MP370, MP377, Linux-based operator panels

Which external storage media can you use with the current SIMATIC panels and which memory card interfaces do they have?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/21847868/which-external-storage-media-can-you-use-with-the-current-simatic-panels-and-which-memory-card-interfaces-do-they-have

How do you backup/restore with a Comfort Panel?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/58876345/how-do-you-backup-restore-with-a-comfort-panel

How do you back transfer the projects of an operator panel and what should you watch out for?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/21907703/how-do-you-back-transfer-the-projects-of-an-operator-panel-and-what-should-you-watch-out-for

https://megaupload.nz/U6L0jfv1n8/SIMATIC_ProSave_V15_1_exe
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JRRALAHY
Junior
Junior


Joined: 22 Oct 2018
Posts: 11

PostPosted: 14/06/2019 09:41    Post subject: Re: How do you backup/restore with a Windows-based panel? Reply with quote

ALooser wrote:
How do you backup/restore with a Windows-based panel?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/28928853/how-do-you-backup-restore-with-a-windows-based-panel

1. Backup/Restore with ProSave
With ProSave you have a convenient option of central archiving even without ProTool or WinCC flexible. This provides you with a quick way of starting up again after a system failure or replacement of devices. The backed-up data is transferred to the new target device and the original status thus restored.
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/21907703/21907703_Back_transfer_description_e.pdf
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/21907703/21907703_Back_transfer_devices_e.pdf
It is not possible to load and edit a backup file in ProTool or WinCC flexible. The file can only be reloaded to the original or another panel via a restore with ProSave.
Note
Operator panel TP070 does not support backup/restore with ProSave.

=====================================
1.Preparations for Backup/Restore
Depending on the operator panel, you can use one of the following connections for a backup/restore with ProSave:
- Serial (over RS232/PPI multimaster cable) 6ES7 901-3CB30-0AX0
- Serial (over USB-PPI cable) 6ES7 901-3DB30-0XA0
- Serial (over RS232 / zero modem cable) *) 6ES7 901-1BF00-0XA0
- MPI / PROFIBUS DP
- Ethernet
- USB (host-to-host cable) information in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/19142034/USB_Transfer_V1_0_e.pdf
*)You can create the zero modem cable (6ES7 901-1BF00-0XA0) yourself. More information is available in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/attachments/21401061/Panel_Kommunikation_Steckerbelegung_T1_01_e.pdf
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
01
If you do not have ProTool or WinCC flexible, you can also download ProSave independently - see
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/10347815/servicetool-simatic-prosave

ProSave allows a complete backup directly from the panel including the configuration. The backup created can then be loaded back into the original or an identical device.
Connect the PC with the panel and put it the panel in Transfer mode. If not configured, you can put the panel in this mode by switching the power off and on again. For this you must select and hold the Transfer button when you restart the panel.

Now the panel is in Transfer mode and ready for backup/restore.
If you want to make a restore, you can jump directly to Point 3 "Restore".
====================================
2.Backup
Open ProSave and select the correct panel in the "General" tab.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
02
Select the connection between the PC and the panel, serial (over RS232 / zero modem cable), for example.
Define the connection parameters, for example COM1 with a baud rate of 38400 for the serial connection.
Note:
In USB connections (host-to-host cable) and serial connections over USB-PPI cable, you cannot define additional connection parameters.

Switch to the "Backup" tab, select the path and specify a file name, "C:\panel.psb", for example. Under the "Data type" you define the type of backup to be created.
Note:
The file extension ".psb" is necessary, because only this file type can be loaded for a restore.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
03
When everything is set, you trigger the backup procedure with "Start Backup".
Note:
If the connection is interrupted, it might be because another software, virus scanner or power management, for example, is accessing the COM interface. Therefore, make sure that any such software is terminated before restarting.
Once the backup has been completed, the file created can now be loaded back into a device of the same type or back into the autentic device, as required.
===============================================
3.Restore
First put your panel in Transfer mode as described in Point 1 and set up the connection to the PC.
Select the appropriate operator panel and connection type in the "General" tab - see Fig. 02.
If possible, define the connection parameters.
Switch to the "Restore" tab in ProSave.
Open your ".psb-file" and transfer the loading procedure by clicking "Start Restore".
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
04
After successful transfer of data to your panel, this is now ready to be integrated in your system after startup.

Note:
The panel has exactly the same connection parameters as the panel from which the backup originates. Make sure that both panels are not in the same system, in order to avoid connection problems.
===============================================
2. Backup/Restore with a memory card
During saving (backup), the operating system, applications and data are copied from the internal flash memory of the operator panel to the memory card.
When you restore, the flash memory of the operator panel is deleted after a prompt. Then the data backed up on the memory card is copied to the internal flash memory.
Requirements
The operator panel supports the Backup/Restore function.
A memory card is available in the operator panel with sufficient free space.
Which operator panels support backup/restore with a memory card are given in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/21907703/how-do-you-back-transfer-the-projects-of-an-operator-panel-and-what-should-you-watch-out-for
Use of the backup/restore function depends on the operator panel. In the following we will be considering operator panels of the 177, 277 and 377 series. For other operator panels - in special for older operator panels - please refer to the relevant manuals for the procedure.
No. Procedure
1 Preparation

Start the operator panel and open the "Control Panel".
Slot the memory card into the operator panel.
Open the "Backup/Restore" menu in the "Control Panel".
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
05
If you only want to make a restore, you can jump directly to Point 3 "Restore".
=============================================
2 Backup
Click the "Backup" button in "Backup/Restore" dialog.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
06
Note
Figure 06 shows the "Backup/Restore" dialog of an operator panel with Windows CE 5.0.

=============================================
2.1 Backup - operator panels with one interface for memory cards
With operator panels with only one interface for memory cards, the memory card is automatically searched for.
a) Memory card detected
If the backup is successful, the "Backup successfully completed." dialog opens.
Acknowledge the dialog with "OK".
If there is already an old backup on the memory card, a message is issued on the operator asking whether or not you want to delete the old backup.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to delete the old backup and create a new one.
Acknowledge the message with "No" if you do not want to delete the old backup and want to interrupt the current backup procedure. Acknowledge the interrupt with "OK".
A warning is displayed if the available memory is insufficient.
Use an appropriate memory card or delete all the unnecessary data in the Windows CE Explorer.
b) Memory card not detected
If there is a defective memory card in the operator panel, or none at all, then the following message is displayed.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
07
Click "OK" to close the warning.
Click "OK" to acknowledge the "Backup interrupted" message.
Repeat the procedure using an appropriate memory card.
2.2 Backup - operator panels with numeroase interfaces for memory cards
In the case of operator panels with multiple interfaces for memory cards, you can select the memory card explicitly on the operator panel - see Fig. 8.
In the list box - see Fig. 08 - you select the required memory card and then click the "Start Backup" button.
Warning - possible loss of data!
When you first use a memory card, the operator panel prompts you to format it.
Click the "ESC" button to abort the formatting procedure.
If no memory card is slotted or the memory card is defective, then no memory card is displayed.
In this case, slot a memory card that functions into the operator panel.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
08
If the message is displayed indicating that a higher storage capacity is required, then proceed as follows:
Click "OK" to acknowledge the message and thus interrupt the backup.
Slot a memory card with the higher storage capacity into the operator panel.
Start the backup again.
If there is already an old backup on the memory card, you get a message asking you whether this backup should be overwritten.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to delete the old backup and realizate a new one.
Acknowledge the message with "No" if you do not want to delete the old backup and want to interrupt the current backup procedure. Acknowledge the interrupt with "OK".
The backup is completed when the "Backup successfully completed..." message is displayed.
Acknowledge the message with "OK".
Remove the memory card from the operator panel.
3 Restore
Click the "Restore" button in the "Backup/Restore" dialog - see Fig. 06.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
09
Note
Figure 09 shows the "Backup/Restore" dialog of an operator panel with Windows CE 3.0.
=============================================
3.1 Restore - operator panels with one interface for memory cards
In the case of operator panels with only one interface for memory cards, you can do a restore only via that interface.
a) Memory card detected
If the memory card is detected, a message is displayed asking whether the restore procedure should be continued. Here, all the data of the flash will be deleted on the operator panel.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to start the restore.
Acknowledge the message with "No" and then the following message with "OK" if you want to abort the restore.
Once the flash has been deleted and the Windows CE image has been successfully restored, you must reboot the operator panel.
Acknowledge the message with "OK".
Note
Do not remove the memory card from the operator panel during the restart!
As soon as the restore has been successfully completed, a message is displayed prompting you to remove the memory card from the operator panel.
Remove the memory card from the operator panel.
Acknowledge removal of the memory and reboot with "OK".
b) Memory card not detected
If there is a defective memory card in the operator panel, or none at all, then the following message is displayed.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
10
Slot an appropriate memory card into the operator panel and acknowledge this with "OK" if you want to execute the restore.
Click the "X" if you want to abort the restore procedure.
3.2 Restore - operator panels with multiple interfaces for memory cards
In the case of operator panels with multiple interfaces for memory cards, you can select the memory card explicitly on the operator panel - see Fig. 1.
In this case, you select the memory card that contains the backup.
If no memory card is slotted or the memory card is defective or the memory card contains no backup, then no memory card is displayed.
In this case, slot a memory card that functions and which contains a backup of the operator panel into the operator panel.
Only storage media containing a backup is detected.
Then click the "Start Restore" button.
If multiple external storage media with a backup are slotted on one operator panel, data restore is not possible.
Remove all the external storage media units that contain a backup and are not relevant and then click the "Refresh" button.
Alternatively you can abort the restore procedure by clicking the "Cancel" button.
Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE Touch panel MP377 blocked on BootCE
11
Once the data to be restored has been checked, a prompt is displayed querying whether you want to start Restore and in doing so whether you want to delete all the data on the flash.
Acknowledge the message with "Yes" if you want to start the restore.
Acknowledge the message with "No" and then the following message with "OK" if you want to abort the restore.
The restore is completed when the "Restore successfully finished..." message is displayed.
Click "OK" to acknowledge the message and restart the operator panel.
Additional Keywords
OP73, TP070, TP170, TP177, Mobile Panel170, Mobile Panel177, Mobile Panel277, OP77A, OP77B, TP170A, TP170B, TP177A, TP177B, OP170B, OP177, TP270, TP277, OP270, OP277, MP270, MP270B, MP277, MP370, MP377, Linux-based operator panels

Which external storage media can you use with the current SIMATIC panels and which memory card interfaces do they have?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/21847868/which-external-storage-media-can-you-use-with-the-current-simatic-panels-and-which-memory-card-interfaces-do-they-have

How do you backup/restore with a Comfort Panel?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/58876345/how-do-you-backup-restore-with-a-comfort-panel

How do you back transfer the projects of an operator panel and what should you watch out for?
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/21907703/how-do-you-back-transfer-the-projects-of-an-operator-panel-and-what-should-you-watch-out-for

https://megaupload.nz/U6L0jfv1n8/SIMATIC_ProSave_V15_1_exe



I'm not able to restore because the windows CE is not started.
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yaslin
Junior 2
Junior 2


Joined: 24 Nov 2017
Posts: 30

PostPosted: 14/06/2019 14:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Backup/Restore with a valid memory card (from other panels eventually..)
During saving (backup), the operating system, applications and data are copied from the internal flash memory of the operator panel to the memory card.
When you restore, the flash memory of the operator panel is deleted after a prompt. Then the data backed up on the memory card is copied to the internal flash memory.
Requirements
The operator panel supports the Backup/Restore function.
A memory card is available in the operator panel with sufficient free space.
Which operator panels support backup/restore with a memory card are given in
https://support.industry.siemens.com/cs/document/21907703/how-do-you-back-transfer-the-projects-of-an-operator-panel-and-what-should-you-watch-out-for
Use of the backup/restore function depends on the operator panel. In the following we will be considering operator panels of the 177, 277 and 377 series. For other operator panels - in special for older operator panels - please refer to the relevant manuals for the procedure.
No. Procedure
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uuqicfha
Junior
Junior


Joined: 13 Jun 2019
Posts: 1

PostPosted: 14/06/2019 17:34    Post subject: Reply with quote

and if you have not memory is not possible isn't it??
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